Abortion: a Point of View

[Charles W. Brown, Ph.D.]

As everyone knows, abortion is one of the most contentious issues in the United States. The central problems involve the definition of abortion and who created that definition. Some believe that any abortion is premeditated murder of an innocent baby. But is it the definition “human” that is the core issue? The men of the Catholic Church hierarchy have decided that they are the ones who have the absolute truth and will go to any extent to impose their absolutic ideas on the rest of us because they are so right. They believe at conception a human is created. A zygote (or fertilized human egg) is a human being and any attempt to define the human zygote otherwise is horrible and an unholy evil. Why? Because that cell (zygote) has 46 chromosomes! Well so do all other cells in the human body, except red blood cells and gametes.

I cannot accept that the fertilized egg is a human being with all of the hopes, fears, and capability to love and create, to think of the past then act in the future on the basis of knowledge of history. There is no doubt that a new born baby is a fully complete human being and that makes infanticide totally unacceptable. Once a baby is born, we must use our resources to give it an enlighten life full of love and care as every person deserves.

But where does one draw the line between the fertilized egg (zygote) and a new born infant?? Sometime after the beginning of embryonic development the development of a fully formed human occurs. Now who will define when, during development birth, a human being is formed and should be cared for? Now who will define when, during development, a human being is formed?? I suggest, to be safe, to define that time to be sometime after 90 days of pregnency.

What right does the pope, cardinal, archbishop, bishop or priest have to tell us how to run our government or set our laws or create our laws?? If they are a political organization then they should be taxed as such. That goes for all other religious organizations. That tax should go to the dissemination of birth control to reduce the need for abortion. It is a paragon of hypocrisy for the pope to make pronouncements against birth control and yet denounce abortion so piously. Abortion is not a form of birth control; it is the last disparate act to keep from bringing into this world an unwanted child. It would be wonderful to reduce the number of abortions in this world no matter when we define when a human being is formed during development.

It appears that those who oppose abortions so adamantly care little for a person after birth. For the antiabortionists they consider war, famine and epidemics that kill millions of human beings as acceptable as long as it does not occur during pregnancy. Also, send men and women off to war and be killed and maimed. It is truly sad that they call themselves “ pro-lifers” when in fact they represent the "culture of death."

[splendor]

Originally Posted by Charles W. Brown, Ph.D.

As everyone knows, abortion is one of the most contentious issues in the United States. The central problems involve the definition of abortion and who created that definition. Some believe that any abortion is premeditated murder of an innocent baby. But is it the definition “human” that is the core issue? The men of the Catholic Church hierarchy have decided that they are the ones who have the absolute truth and will go to any extent to impose their absolutic ideas on the rest of us because they are so right. They believe at conception a human is created. A zygote (or fertilized human egg) is a human being and any attempt to define the human zygote otherwise is horrible and an unholy evil. Why? Because that cell (zygote) has 46 chromosomes! Well so do all other cells in the human body, except red blood cells and gametes.

I cannot accept that the fertilized egg is a human being with all of the hopes, fears, and capability to love and create, to think of the past then act in the future on the basis of knowledge of history. There is no doubt that a new born baby is a fully complete human being and that makes infanticide totally unacceptable. Once a baby is born, we must use our resources to give it an enlighten life full of love and care as every person deserves.

But where does one draw the line between the fertilized egg (zygote) and a new born infant?? Sometime after the beginning of embryonic development the development of a fully formed human occurs. Now who will define when, during development birth, a human being is formed and should be cared for? Now who will define when, during development, a human being is formed?? I suggest, to be safe, to define that time to be sometime after 90 days of pregnency.

What right does the pope, cardinal, archbishop, bishop or priest have to tell us how to run our government or set our laws or create our laws?? If they are a political organization then they should be taxed as such. That goes for all other religious organizations. That tax should go to the dissemination of birth control to reduce the need for abortion. It is a paragon of hypocrisy for the pope to make pronouncements against birth control and yet denounce abortion so piously. Abortion is not a form of birth control; it is the last disparate act to keep from bringing into this world an unwanted child. It would be wonderful to reduce the number of abortions in this world no matter when we define when a human being is formed during development.

It appears that those who oppose abortions so adamantly care little for a person after birth. For the antiabortionists they consider war, famine and epidemics that kill millions of human beings as acceptable as long as it does not occur during pregnancy. Also, send men and women off to war and be killed and maimed. It is truly sad that they call themselves “ pro-lifers” when in fact they represent the "culture of death."

A very good post, Dr. Brown; and for the most part I agree with it.

In my opinion the bottom line to the abortion controversy is that as long as it remains a controversy and neither side attempts to legislate (other than late term abortion) their views or resort to violence in promoting their agenda(s)--let the race continue (and continue it will; because it will never be resloved).

I agree that Catholic opposition to birth control is ridiculous and archaic.

However, in your zeal to make a point, you got a little carried away in your last paragraph when you painted all Pro Life advocates with a broad brush which is totally unfair; any more than it would be to say that all Pro Choice proponents are immoral baby killers.

My suggestion; work on your equanimity.

[Nunyabiz]

More like 9.99 out of 10.

Fact of the matter if as a whole Dr Brown is correct, the ones most hell bent on destruction, war, killing, torture, are the "vast majority" of the anti abortion nutters.

[splendor]

Originally Posted by Nunyabiz

More like 9.99 out of 10.

Fact of the matter if as a whole Dr Brown is correct, the ones most hell bent on destruction, war, killing, torture, are the "vast majority" of the anti abortion nutters.

You never cease to amaze me how you pole vault (it goes way beyond "jump") to conclusions about anyone who disagrees with your assessment of a topic.

I agree that there are some anti-abortionists who could be categorized as the lunatic fringe; but "the vast majority"?

Just how in Hell would you know that a disproportionate number of those who are against abortion fit into the category you and Dr. Brown so callously squeeze them? Are you both clairvoyant?

Like I said to Dr. Brown, Nun; you need to work on your equanimity and fairmindedness--only more so.

[Nunyabiz]

Originally Posted by splendor

You never cease to amaze me how you pole vault (it goes way beyond "jump") to conclusions about anyone who disagrees with your assessment of a topic.

I agree that there are some anti-abortionists who could be categorized as the lunatic fringe; but "the vast majority"?

Just how in Hell would you know that a disproportionate number of those who are against abortion fit into the category you and Dr. Brown so callously squeeze them? Are you both clairvoyant?

Like I said to Dr. Brown, Nun; you need to work on your equanimity and fairmindedness--only more so.

Just going by everything I have seen the past 30-40 years.
99% of everybody you see against abortion are devoutly religious to the point of delusional that is lunatic fringe to me.

[Charles W. Brown, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by splendor

You never cease to amaze me how you pole vault (it goes way beyond "jump") to conclusions about anyone who disagrees with your assessment of a topic.

I agree that there are some anti-abortionists who could be categorized as the lunatic fringe; but "the vast majority"?

Just how in Hell would you know that a disproportionate number of those who are against abortion fit into the category you and Dr. Brown so callously squeeze them? Are you both clairvoyant?

Like I said to Dr. Brown, Nun; you need to work on your equanimity and fairmindedness--only more so.

I agree that fairmindedness is the best. But how do I respond to those who would impose a Constitutional amendment on everyone to make all abortion, in their definition, illegal and punishible by death? Or how about those who are so disposed, according to their beliefs, to assasinate doctors who give abortions? Then there are those who, by means of overlooking these crimes, by default support such behavior? This could lead to the opinion that anyone who does not believe in their particular religious beliefs should be buned at the stake.

It seems reasonable that for those who do not accept abortion can follow their convictions and not have abortions....but leave the rest of us alone to follow our own convictions and beliefs. Let us not block reaonable health care provisions by the government just because of their religious beliefs.

[splendor]

Originally Posted by Nunyabiz

Just going by everything I have seen the past 30-40 years.
99% of everybody you see against abortion are devoutly religious to the point of delusional that is lunatic fringe to me.

That's my point exactly! What you "see" is what the media covers, nothing else; and you are basing your judgments upon a smattering of radical, in-your-face zealots that the media keys on--not upon half of America's adult population who are Pro Life!

You of all people who claims that the media manipulates the news, now wants to have your cake and eat it when it serves your purpose--to wit:

"Just going by everything I have seen the past 30-40 years."

And unless you have met and looked in to the psyche of all of those people, I respectfully suggest you rethink your all encompassing assessments on the subject.

There must be millions of people who are against abortion who have never picketed, bombed abortion clinics, murdered abortion doctors or tried to legislate their views on abortion; and I am one of them!

To reiterate, this it what I disagreed with in Dr. Brown's original post (including your last post on the subject); and it remains, totally unfair:

"It appears that those who oppose abortions so adamantly care little for a person after birth. For the antiabortionists they consider war, famine and epidemics that kill millions of human beings as acceptable as long as it does not occur during pregnancy. Also, send men and women off to war and be killed and maimed. It is truly sad that they call themselves “ pro-lifers” when in fact they represent the "culture of death."

[Nunyabiz]

A HUGE percentage of Anti Abortion nutters are stark raving mad, I see them everywhere.
I passed an abortion clinic last week taking my wife to an appointment and there were several lunatics out front scaring these poor women and the doctors.

You may deny what ever you wish but fact of the matter is that MOST anti abortion nutters are out of their mind or at very least don't even bat an eyelash in regret when they hear of some abortion doctor being murdered or clinic bombed & terrorized.

Face facts when you have "religious nuts" involved in anything like this what you have are people that get ALL of their information from "faith" in religious dogma.
Thus all facts, any and all data that does not fit what they want to believe is completely disregarded, even demonized.
Religious nutters will become obsessed in almost every case, once this becomes an obsession that's it, game over. There is absolutely no reaching them, no debate, nothing. It all becomes what amounts to a religious crusade where they view any action they take as fully "justified" by their religious belief.

That's just great that you are not like them, or that you know a handful of others that aren't.
But there are just as many if not more that are exactly like this guy.




There are MILLIONS of these nutters that actually consider this nutter a 'Hero".

http://www.armyofgod.com/

There are numerous other anti abortion nut groups, and literally hundreds of "Christian Terrorist" groups in this country.

this person explains it quite well.

"God sent the shooter,” the signs wielded by anti-abortion protestors at the funeral of slain doctor George Tiller proclaimed. Last week’s assassination of abortion provider and feminist George Tiller in a Kansas church on the so-called holy seventh day was not only a barbaric act of religious cowardice but a terrorist assault on the rights of women. Tragically similar to the 1998 murder of New York doctor Bernard Slepian, Tiller’s murder was the culmination of years of attempted murders, death threats, bombings and arson attacks waged against abortion providers by white Christian terrorists.Despite the scope of this orchestrated campaign mainstream media rarely identify these acts or those who commit them as “terrorist.” Those who invoke Christian fundamentalism as justification for their barbaric incursions against women and their allies are dismissed as aberrations, even though the profiles of the killers are always the same, the suspects—generally disaffected white middle aged males, aligned with a crackpot anti-government militia and/or fundamentalist ethos steeped in the bloody retribution of the Old Testament—virtually plucked from central casting.
These spasms of Christian fundamentalist violence are largely peculiar to the United States. Anti-abortion activism in Western European countries such as Great Britain, France and Italy doesn’t inspire anywhere near the level of militant resistance seen here. This virulent strain of fundamentalism was nourished by three theocratic Republican administrations that dismembered the Constitution and effectively sanctioned criminal campaigns against abortion providers. So while the U.S. condemns Muslim religious fundamentalism and trumpets itself as a beacon for individual and civil liberties unbridled by theocratic intolerance it has become a breeding ground for the most dangerous Christian fundamentalist terrorist movement in the world.
Christian fundamentalism has always objectified women’s bodies as patriarchal property and territory for reproductive control. It’s no surprise then that white men deem themselves to be Christian soldiers in the war over the wombs of Middle American and Southern white women. It’s also no surprise that the Bible Belt, fount of hyper-religious public policy that demonizes sex education and contraception, has the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country.

http://www.afro-netizen.com/2009/06/...ge-tiller.html


Millions of such nuts, probably at least 30-35% of the entire population are not "just a smattering".

[splendor]

Originally Posted by Nunyabiz

A HUGE percentage of Anti Abortion nutters are stark raving mad, I see them everywhere.
I passed an abortion clinic last week taking my wife to an appointment and there were several lunatics out front scaring these poor women and the doctors.

You may deny what ever you wish but fact of the matter is that MOST anti abortion nutters are out of their mind or at very least don't even bat an eyelash in regret when they hear of some abortion doctor being murdered or clinic bombed & terrorized.

Face facts when you have "religious nuts" involved in anything like this what you have are people that get ALL of their information from "faith" in religious dogma.
Thus all facts, any and all data that does not fit what they want to believe is completely disregarded, even demonized.
Religious nutters will become obsessed in almost every case, once this becomes an obsession that's it, game over. There is absolutely no reaching them, no debate, nothing. It all becomes what amounts to a religious crusade where they view any action they take as fully "justified" by their religious belief.

That's just great that you are not like them, or that you know a handful of others that aren't.
But there are just as many if not more that are exactly like this guy.




There are MILLIONS of these nutters that actually consider this nutter a 'Hero".

http://www.armyofgod.com/

There are numerous other anti abortion nut groups, and literally hundreds of "Christian Terrorist" groups in this country.

this person explains it quite well.

http://www.afro-netizen.com/2009/06/...ge-tiller.html


Millions of such nuts, probably at least 30-35% of the entire population are not "just a smattering".

Question: "What makes horse racing"? Answer: "A difference of opinion"--and what you are expounding about is just that; nothing more!

It must be difficult to see in that tunnel you live in, Nun.

[Raimund Heinrich]

Abortion will always be a contraversal topic, and I feel that even though it's wrong to kill, and abortion does kill, there are times when it must be done to either, ensure the further existance of the mother, or maybe she's too young, but then, that is all because of a lack of proper upbringging, and today we have too much of that, there's an old saying that goes: The best way to fight a fire, is to prevent the fire,, well, good luck preventing this one, with the garbage on TV these days, and peer pressure the way it is at schools, it's understandable why children are having children, this all falls on the parents mostly.